Germaine B. and Amy Fantastic of Monkey Mania and Various

February 26th, 2025

Ed: Alright, so firstly, who are you?

Amy: Well, I'm Amy Fantastic and I was the bass player, singer? back up singer? in Rainbow Sugar, a bunch of other bands. I also ran avenue called Polyfinger, a venue called Monkey Mania, and a venue called-- or I would't say I ran them-- but I was a crucial element to those two places and Wunderground. Those three places.

Germaine: I'm Germain-bow Sugar and I was mostly just, I was just partying the whole time, Amy was running everything.

Amy: And being helpful.

Germaine: At all of those venues [laughter]. And I'm also a drummer in,

Amy: In a million bands

Germaine: In a million bands, and also Rainbow Sugar

Ed: So what was your guys' introduction to DIY spaces or like, alternative venues, or culture?

Amy: Well, I'll go first, just because I go way, way back. At around 12 I started going to warehouse shows in Denver. So I was going to shows at like The Purple Room, which eventually ended up turning into Monkey Mania. And it was also,

Germaine: The Arapahoe Warehouse (Twice Wilted, nearby Unit B)

Amy: The Arapahoe Warehouse. So that warehouse had like 20 years worth of history to it, of different groups of people moving into it and running shows. So I would go to shows there as a young girl, I would go to shows at the Grimace House 

Germaine: Yeah

Amy: And then there were a couple other venues that I know. Rented Refuse had a warehouse down on Larimer we used to go to. So I was like a little kid running around warehouse shows, you know, from the minute I could sneak out of my house [laughter].

Germaine: Well, I remember the Grimace Warehouse, I think that was one of the first ones I went to a show at and,

Amy: And that was down on like, 6th and Santa Fe(?)

Germaine: Yeah, wasn't it near Polyfinger?

Amy: Yeah, it was right around the corner from us.

Ed: And what was the name of that again?

Amy: The Grimace Warehouse. So there was a band here called Grimace at the time, they were pretty much the biggest band in Denver at the time, next to maybe like Foreskin and the Pinchers, then there was Grimace and they had a warehouse right on the corner there of... like, maybe like 8th and Santa Fe. 

Germaine: Yes, yeah

Amy: And we were over on 6th and Santa Fe in a warehouse, Polyfinger, which is where I met Germaine. So yeah, we were right around the corner there. But they had been there quite a while at that point, they probably ran that place for close to 10 years.

Ed: So that-- ten years from what year?

Amy: Oh, so that, let's see, I was going there when I was real young

Germaine: Like 1996ish

Amy: Like 14(?), so it would have been, yeah, like early 90's. 

Germaine: 1995 is when I went.

Amy: But I think it was around quite a while before that, cause I was going to shows there pretty young. So yeah, they had been there probably early 90's to at least like 95, 96 I think?

Ed: Gotcha

Amy: Er, nah, they were probably there from the early 80's, I mean late 80's, I bet ya.

Ed: What was that network like of spaces?

[a pause]

Amy: I feel like it was really individualized. Like, it was scenes, you know, it was different scenes. Like the Wretched Refuse guys weren't hangin' out with the Fluid guys, ya know? Everybody kind of had their own separate scenes. And of course there were people who were fans of all of those bands, so they intermingled, but I kind of felt like the dudes, and it was mostly dudes back then, let's not get it twisted, the dudes kind of kept their scenes pretty separated back then.

Germaine: Yeah, it was almost like this kind of wild west, like tribal kind of 

Amy: Yeah

Germaine: Not rivalry but like... cults! Like we know about each other but we had our own little scenes

Amy: Kind of like probably how it still is today...

[laughter]

Ed: And I'm just curious about like, the real estate, that people could have like a whole warehouse

Amy: Yeah dude. 

Ed: Cause I mean like, I can't imagine that [now]

Amy: Well that's why, you know, I mean we might be headed back there, cause who knows what kind of shit tank we're gonna take in the next few years here, but you know, Monkey Mania was- we had all three levels, two of those levels were condemned, we, I believe we paid $1,500 a month for that entire building and it was like 3,000 sq. feet of usable space.

Germaine: And we lived there

Amy: Yeah, and that's how we afforded it. We all lived there so there would be 4, 5, 6 of us living in these warehouses at a time, one kitchen, one bathroom, that's how everybody did it, was just by living in the absolute squalor [laughter]

Germaine: I ran across to the heating and cooling company that 

Amy: Tony Capra!

Germaine: Yeah, Tony Capra Heating and Cooling, and I was just like, I was so pissed off, the poor secretary or whoever, [I was] like, "It's 20 degrees outside! I come home, and it's 20 degrees inside! I just wanna take a shower!" [laughter] trying to get them to fix the heat

Amy: Yeah, they were not... that was another thing, you were your own repair man

Germaine: Like we had a living space in the front that we kind of heated, and then the back area was just where we had the shows and we wouldn't bother heating that cause it was just huge, I don't know how many square feet that was. And then there was a creepy ass basement too.

Amy: Oh yeah, and there was a basement that people lived in. It was like these huge spaces that we were getting for nothing! And then, ya know, you get five people livin' in there and you're each paying 200, 300 bucks for rent [laughter] and having parties three nights a week.

Germaine: That was the Arapahoe Warehouse location, and it's been leveled since then

Amy: Oh yeah, it's gone now, totally gone. But every warehouse I lived in was, ya know, was a thousand bucks? Five people living in it.

Ed: Gotcha, and these were kind of long term spaces, I mean you talk about one lasting almost 10 years...

Amy: Monkey Mania was in two locations

Germaine: The one we just talked about was the second one.

Amy: Yeah, that was the second location, Monkey Mania Arapahoe originally was on 5th and Lipan, and then they turned that place into a weed growing warehouse, so we moved. But I mean yeah, he ran that place for 10 years, pretty solid, maybe 8 years, but a substantial chunk of years. But Rhinoceropolis was open for like 10 years, they pulled it off!

Ed: I spoke with those guys too and I think like, I think what I'm just thinking about is, what is the relationship with the city at that point?

Amy: Oh! So different. I mean dude, the last Friends Forever, so we were also in a band called Josh Taylor's Friends Forever, me and Germaine, and the last show that we played, we would play outside in the van the way Friends Forever played, except we were all girls instead of boys, it was kind of a joke. So the last show that we played the cops showed-- it was probably, what? [turning to Germaine] 300? 400? kids there, it was insane. The cops showed up and just like laughed and watched us, cause like we played in bikinis, out of the van, and they just hung out and talked and laughed and wanted to talk to us afterward. They didn't shut us down, they didn't do nothin', you know? In this day and age, you get 20 people together in a warehouse and they're shutting you down.

Like after Ghost Ship, everything, changed. It was like a light turned off.

Ed: Yeah... yeah.

Amy: [Safety was a huge concern, one of the main reasons we stopped was because of dangerous behavior.]

Germaine: I have something to say about that. The Ghost Ship warehouse, Monkey Mania, it was always a safe space and a sense of community, so like, you could be the biggest weirdo, the ugliest person, you could be whoever you want, and go to a show, and feel comfortable, and it was like a second home, and it was a place for everyone.

Amy: Yeah... and that is seriously lacking in todays [world]. Cause you can't! You can't get your hands on a shitty old warehouse anymore. But sorry, please finish with that.

Ed: No, cause like I think it's so important what you're saying to have like a space, where you're able to have a community, it's so hard to have a community without a space. You know? Just somewhere to centralize things. And I mean, it's tragic on so many levels what happened with Ghost Ship, because of like, the loss of life, the impact on that community. But that the response to it was to criminalize... non profit gathering spaces.

Amy: Yeah! Exactly.

Germaine: And that's like the only place you could have that sort of thing. I mean, you can't have that kind of community in a bar 

Amy: Cause you can't have all ages in a bar!

Germaine: It's not about selling booze or anything, it's about having, a place. 

Amy: I mean, and that's the other problem with spaces like that is, it's impossible to make money doing it. That's why me and Josh don't do it anymore! We have a kid now, we have to make money, we have to take care of our kid. Believe me, if Josh could be running a show space right now, instead of working A/V tech, he'd be doing it in a heartbeat. But it's a financial and a law issue, even getting your hands on the shittiest warehouse in this town... is impossible now.

So that's the dilemma that these kids run into now, is you almost have to be willing to turn your house into a public space, and that's really scary. 

Ed: Well, and it's now even, it would get shut down.

Amy: Yeah, anymore, even a decent size house party is going down, yeah.

Ed: So as you guys have grown up in, and taken part in all of this--back in the early 90's, through Ghost Ship, to the present... So with Ghost ship, I think there's this element of like 

Germaine: I've never been to Ghost Ship by the way.

Ed: But that event, that tragedy, I think it was exploited in the worst possible way

Amy: Absolutely.

Ed: By the powers that be, instead of saying like, "How can we make these spaces safer?" it was just

Amy: We're gonna crush them

Ed: We're gonna outlaw them. So [prior to recording] you mentioned you had a friend in Baton Rouge who had a community space 

Amy: But she has to run it totally above board. It's licensed and all of that stuff, she can't have like an underground venue there, she has to have a legitimate space.

Ed: Yeah, I think, from talking to people, there's this crucial time in early adolescence where you find something that can authentically be yours.

Amy: Yeah

Ed: Like "This is me, this is my crew, this is our space" Like even, you talk about that kind of tribalism, that that's an important part of developing a healthy sense of yourself.

Amy: And it's also crucial to meeting likeminded people.

Ed: Yeah!

Amy: If you want to get off the dating sites, maybe go hang some place that-- oh! wait, there's no place for people to hang, get back on the dating sites. But you know like, that fuckin' blows! Not being able to meet people in a natural environment where you're gravitating towards people that you are naturally attracted to, I mean... that's a nightmare! That that doesn't exist anymore. 

Ed: Well, and I would also just be curious about what your sense of what the internet has done to... alternative culture? Because like, if there is a space that is underground, it's not

Amy: Underground for very long.

Ed: Like 6 months before it's on blast

Amy: [and] gets exploited. Yeah

Germaine: Can I say something about, and also, those underground warehouses, I felt like I was like a performance artist or something, we could just do whatever, we could make up a fake band and perform or whatever, the bar was really low.

Amy: Really experiment freely.

Germaine: Yeah, experiment freely, but, ya know, if you have a show at a bar, there's expectations, you gotta bring people in, you gotta pay, you gotta provide music that a lot of people like, you know, it's like

Amy: It's a bummer.

Germaine: There's no room for doing just whatever the hell you want.

Amy: Well, it stifles creativity. It stifles creativity to not have spaces where people can experiment with their art form.

Ed: And like when everything has to have such a purpose, everything has to be successful.

Amy: Exactly, that blows. Yeah, that makes everything way less fun for young people who are just coming up and learning, and honestly, that what show spaces like from the past were kind of for, like developing bands. It's like the record industry, there's just like no artistic development at all at this point, you know? I mean, it's really kind of a... I mean, it sucks because my husband's 50 years old, we have money, and we could open a space, but they've just really made it almost impossible. Josh would love to open a space here, he'd even do it legit! But they've made Denver, they've just priced everyone out of Denver.

Ed: But even like the experience of opening a show, for a band that isn't like famous at all, that like 10 people show up, and having to fill out tax return forms?!

Amy: Yeah!

Ed: And it's like, "There's no money here" 

Amy: Yeah, it's really weird, it's gotten really hard!

Germaine: Gotta start calling it a church apparently or something. [laughter]

Amy: Maybe! I mean honestly, it's something Josh looked into. And Andrew Novak too! Like Andrew Novak from The Warlock Pinchers, he's been interested in opening a space for years now, but they have made it very difficult. I mean, after talking to those Rhino dudes, you know what they went through, to try and get the place up to code, and then for it to just kind of disintegrate at that point 

Ed: And then COVID hit

Germaine: Yeah, laws and codes shouldn't shape reality, we shouldn't have to fit into the... hole.

Amy: And especially a punk rock reality, like there should be ways around it, and I am having a really hard time figuring it out. A few people have spaces still, you know? They're pullin' it off, there's people pullin it off. But most of those kids have been in those spaces for... a while, ya know? And have rents that are at least somewhat reasonable.

Ed: Do you feel like there's any difference, like what you're talking about, Germaine, as far as like, if you play a bar, even if it's a friendly bar, or even if it's a good show or whatever, that there's just a fundamental different attitude or atmosphere around it than a DIY space?

Germaine: Yeah, I mean, like the joke bands or the performance art, or even like, my friend Bonnie Weimer took me out to open mic nights around Denver, fairly recently, and it's totally changed. It used to be like, anyone could show up, play whatever song they'd been playing in their living room or whatever, at home, and whatever, it used to be that the bar was really low for whoever wanted to come play.

Now, you go to this open mic, and it's like all these people who all know each other and they're all really professional, jazz musicians and they're all really cliquey and it's just them and if you do go up and just play what you want to play, someone's gonna like, "Okay honey..." like mansplain, "If you wanna succeed you gotta do this, you gotta do that." and it's like, "I never asked!" [laughter] you know, I never asked you. I'm not trying to succeed, I'm not trying to be a commercial musician or whatever. But, yeah.

Amy: Just wanna play the fuckin' banjo!

Germaine: Exactly! [laughter] 

Amy: It's an open mic man!

Germaine: But it's just such a commercial world out there. That's what bars do to music, you can't just show up and... you know, it's not a small town anymore. It's like, you can't just go down the Nashville Strip and play your weirdo music, or something. That's how it feels, you know? There's just not that creative, openminded, kind of like, "Oh let's see what this weirdo has to offer?" There's no room for weirdness [laughter]

Amy: I would also add to that, that not having teenagers makes a humongous difference, when it comes to a show, because teenagers, young people, have an energy that assholes at the bar don't have. You know what I mean? Some dumbass at a bar, trying to get a drink and hit on some poor girl, has a totally different motivation for being there than a kid that shows up, a 15 year old who loves this band and shows up to see them.

Ed: Absolutely man, [long pause] we'll edit out this long pause [laughter]

Amy: Yeah, yeah, that's fine. [laughter] you can edit out all kinds of this [laughter]

Germaine: Can I tell you about one of my memories  favorite shows at Monkey Mania 1?

Ed: Yeah!

Germaine: So, we were living in, well, there's so many memories there but I was living, I convinced Josh to let me live in the front lobby, which, he had a hard time collecting rent from me, I barely had a job, I'd always quit and leave town to go on tour, with my band and stuff [laughter] 

Amy: It was a tiny space

Germaine: Both me and Amy were living in that, like, lobby room, it was like 100 [square feet]?

Amy: Not even, it was like 40 square feet or something. 

Germaine: [laughter] 40 sq. feet. And there would be shows there, at first it started off like, there'd be like 5 people would show up to a show, and then it started like 10 people would show up to a show, didn't it seem like that?

Amy: Mmhmm, oh yeah. 

Germaine: And Josh, because he was in Friends Forever, he knew people from all over the nation, so they would come thru Denver and play these shows at this warehouse and so there would be like a different show every single night sometimes. So I would just be going to bed and I would hear music playing pretty loud, cause it was just like,

Amy: On the other side of the wall.

[laugher]

Germaine: And I'd just be falling asleep to this band, like Physics, and they're like so pre-internet I don't know, I think I finally found one of the guys and I was like, "How do I get your music?!" and he was just like, "I don't know" [laughter] "Ask so and so" I'm like, "Ahhh, it was so good" It was so good. Like this synthy... droney kind of stuff, but I just remember falling asleep to that music being played in the garage, where there was like, 100 people watching 

Amy: If even

Germaine: Yeah! 

Amy: I remember that show.

Germaine: You do?

Amy: Mmhmm

Germaine: It was so nice. 

Ed: And kind of, to build off that, I think when, the relationships that develop... a friend of mine posted a thing that was about, "How do you know so and so?" and then the joke was "Oh, we went to music together" [laughter] And I feel like, as you've gone through life, and moved into other spaces, and other parts of your life, have those relationships grown, or changed, or like, how has that developed?

Amy: Well, definitely changed, I mean, I hardly talk to Cindy, you know, I keep up with what she's up to. But you know, I love her, and I'll love her til the day I die, but I talk to her like, once every couple years. Germaine keeps in a lot better contact with Cindy than I do. You know, I just, I married Josh! So that relationship has continued to grow, but you know...

Germaine: It did turn into family for me too. My sister took me to my first live show, which was Christy Front Drive at the,

Amy: At the Arapahoe Warehouse..

Germaine: The drummer taught me how to play drums

Amy: Who was your boyfriend!

Germaine: No he wasn't

Amy: Wasn't he?

Germaine: No-- Let me tell the story! [laughter] The drummer taught me how to play drums, the drummer of Christy Front Drive.

Amy: Oh, okay

Germaine: And then Jason, him and Natalie, my sister got together, he was the guitarist, they got together like waaay after that, like 10 years after that, they got together and they had a couple of kids together and everything. So now we're all intermingled and family and everything. And same, my brother, married one of my friends whose sister is Rachel Pollard 

Amy: Singer-songwriter in the Denver area

Germaine: But, like, I knew all the names of like all the female musicians in Denver, like early on, and there weren't that many, [laughter] or I thought I knew all of them. Anyways, for me it's like a high school, where I know everyone's name, and I wasn't really friends with them but, like, I knew about them and like I worked with half of 'em ya know? Was it Reno Divorce?

Amy: Really? Okay

Germaine: I worked with that guy. Anyways, in the stagehand industry

Amy: Yeah, a lot of musicians work in stagehand and A/V tech for sure.

Ed: Well, and another element of this, and this is just my own understanding of things that I've been reading about developing, is that the most fertile creative ground, or just creative, not even just for art, but just for things to happen, is kind of the undesirable conditions 

Amy: I would say yes

Ed: That you guys, what you're talking about is, these were not high end, highly sought after...

Amy: Buildings.

Ed: Or conditions. And it's almost like high class, the fancier things get, the more constricted that creativity becomes.

Amy: Oh, absolutely. Can I tell you a great example of that? 

Ed: Yeah

Amy: So, there's a show space in Los Angeles, called The Smell, which of course I'm sure you're familiar with, and he has been running The Smell for like 20 plus years. So The Smell was in downtown LA, shittiest part of downtown LA, nobody wanted anything to do with it. Well, all of a sudden, you know, his place, The Smell, started making downtown LA kinda cool! So all these assholes started buying all the apartment buildings around there and got these nice places cause it was cool to live in downtown LA, but now, that place down the street's pretty loud, can we call the cops on them every time. So they wanted to live there cause it was cool and they wanted to destroy what it was that had made it cool to begin with because it didn't fit their day to day routine, or whatever. 

Ed: Well, I think from the conversations I've had with people, you need to stay in your lane, not as a punishment 

Amy: No!

Ed: But of like, for there to be this kind of cultural escalator, not in terms of goodness hierarchy or anything, but like, there need to be beginner places

Amy: Yes!

Ed: There need to be intermediary places 

Amy: Absolutely.

Ed: And it's not a competitive thing, where it's like "I need to muscle you out so I can have more of this market" but something where it's like... it all feeds off itself.

Amy: Yeah, and it grows.

Ed: Where the underground venues are...

Amy: A launching point.

Ed: Yeah! But you can't then, like you're saying with The Smell, you can't then evict those people

Amy: Just like Rhino.

Ed: Exactly, you can't make it illegal to do that. 

Amy: Same exact thing happened to Rhino.

Ed: Yeah, it cuts off the upper part of everything. 

Amy: Yeah, the minute the money moves in because "the cool" is there, "the cool" is gone. And that's how it always happens, like every time. [laughter]

Germaine: And there's something to be said for the kind of environment that a weirdo would be comfortable going to a show by themselves, like where someone lives, and it's dirty and there's lots of things on the wall. Not some room, where it looks like an art gallery and all the walls are white and you're just standing there feeling out of place, it has to be somewhere cozy and comfy...

Amy: And it has to be someplace with like... a little bit of freedom.

Germaine: And freedom, yeah

Amy: A little bit of freedom, to do something a little wild. You know, I mean, I talk about them having firecracker wars in the warehouse space, and yeah that wasn't my favorite thing in the world, but other things, like just, hanging from the ceiling, there's gotta be someplace where kids can go and just let loose a little bit. 

Germaine: A space where kids feel like kids are running the place basically. Like, "Okay, I know there's ultimate freedom here but can you not kill everybody?" [laughter]

Ed: I just did an interview with a skateboarder who's starting a skatepark, or moved into an abandoned space and they're building there, and from talking to him, the way like, musicians, skateboarders, criminals, and nerds all kind of share this common bond.

Amy: Mmhmm, I would say those exact same people!

Ed: And I feel like, it's maybe not happening in an obvious way, but I feel like there's always that element to society.

Amy: Oh yeah! There has to be. Those people exist whether you give them a space or not, they're just way more miserable without a place to convene and, ya know... commiserate with each other, or whatever. At least see other people like them. Like even on the internet, there's no like, truth to that, it's not a reality, ya know?

Germaine: Well, even churches don't make most people comfortable

Amy: No!

Germaine: And you can't just be whoever you are supposed to be, you know, some churches do say that, but there's not a single place where a bunch of outcasts and nerds and criminals, whoever, can go

Amy: I mean, there are. What we need to remember is that there are still people who are pulling this off, here, even in Denver. But it's not... at the degree that it used to be. Cause I hate to cut out and say there's no place for these kids, because there are, multiple, live spaces here still, underground... you know, gotta give those people credit, because that's a very difficult thing to pull off these days. 

Ed: Yeah, well, just, another thing that's interesting to me is, talking to people from small towns, and the way, in a small town, somebody can be like, a laborer, a writer, a musician, you know what I mean? I feel like in bigger cities there's more of this specialization.

Amy: Yeah, of course. 

Ed: You know what I mean? Like, "You are just this thing, this is what you do" 

Amy: And you must capitalize on it to survive or else you'll have to work some terrible shitty job.

Ed: And you have to compete with other people in this niche

Amy: Mmhmm

Ed: To me, it goes back again to this undesirable space, you wouldn't think a small town has the most creative energy, but in some ways they do.

Amy: Yeah, well yeah. Even just up in... The Black Monarch? Do you guys know where that's at? I mean, like that, I don't know if you've been up there. Where the hell little city is that?

Germaine: Victor?

Amy: Victor, yeah. So there's some dudes from Denver, or a dude and his wife actually, that bought a hotel up there, called The Black Monarch, and they do shows and festi-- or not so much festivals, but like, big kind of, conferences, with a bunch of vintage dealers, or like, weird, creepy things, and that city, as tiny as it is, I don't know if you've been to Victor, but it's tiny, but because they moved that place in there, there's all this kind of, creative stuff going on, ya know?

Ed: Yeah

Germaine: You mention that, it's kind of like Mutiny moving to Englewood, or Black and Read moving further out, to Wheat Ridge or whatever, it's like everyone is moving further and further out, where it's cheaper.

Amy: And that's exactly what happened to LA over the last 15 years, was like, you could live in Hollywood, 10, 15 years ago, you could do that, we did it. But they pushed everyone out. I mean, that's why when Alta Deana burned down, every cool person in LA's house burned down

Ed: Well, and I would just, and I don't mean to be pushing too many theories here, but in light of what we've been talking about, what to you guys is successful? Not necessarily in a creative space, but in a creative life?

Amy: I mean for me, it would just like... not hating your life. That's fuckin' success to me man. Whatever that means, whether you live in a tent or under a bridge and you don't hate your fuckin' life, you have succeeded my friend. [laughter]

Germaine: I was the most successful, I mean, creatively I felt the most able to be creative when I wasn't just working all the time, and wasn't so busy, ya know? Like, I would have just days and days, just like, "Oh, what can I do?" go wander around Denver, skateboarding, painting, ya know? It was just, you didn't have to make a lot of money, so you didn't have to work all the time, so you could just like...

Amy: Which was a benefit of 6 people living in a shitty ass warehouse, ya know?

Germaine: Yeah

Amy: So yeah, absolutely. [laughter]

Ed: I just ask that because it seems like Denver has become like... and I'm sure we're still like small change in the scope of the country and the world, but [it seems like Denver has become] like more of a destination, that it's constricted what can happen here

Amy: Oh, absolutely, yeah.

Ed: Do you guys agree with that or...

Amy: And it's not even that-- I mean yeah, being a destination to move to.

Ed: That's what I mean.

Amy: Yeah, I mean, nobody wants to visit Denver, it's not fun to come to Denver. Like if your going on a vacation, what a waste of your vacation. [laughter] 

Germaine: Just more of an opportunity for our friends who are artists who then took it to the next level or something, you know? Don't you think? I don't know, I feel like there's still lots of opportunity in Denver, you could like, make a ton of money, there's actually growing industries.

Amy: Well yeah, that's why people come here

Germaine: You could almost get into film, real city stuff if you really wanted to, so that's nice, you know? But you're right, as far as like the place where people who aren't working and not making a lot of money and just being artists, like that's gone. That happened to Portland, Oregon, too

Amy: It happened in LA recently. I mean LA they'll hold in there, like, LA, they're resilient and they're also where the best artists and musicians in the country end up.

Germaine: Right

Amy: But... they're pretty resilient to keep their artist class... surviving. And there's very little support for the arts here. You know?

Ed: Yeah

Amy: It is not an Arts town

Germaine: Not the kind of theatre that LA has [laughter].

Amy: Or theatre, music, none of it. That's a town that gives a shit about their art

Germaine: When I talk about theatre, I mean like, even small theaters, like LA has a whole group of small theaters. I wish Denver, in it's growingness would also have that. And there probably are some out there and I haven't found them.

Amy: I mean, they're closing them all down dude! All the small, cute, good, indie theaters in town are shuttin' down right and left.

Germaine: That's like a money grab here.

Amy: We're in the midst of our money grab era here

Ed: I think what's really unfortunate about Denver is we got tagged as a physical fitness / recreation [laughter] place.

Germaine: So everyone looks like they shop at REI or whatever

Ed: Yeah! It's like, "Do you want to go climb a mountain and ski down it and get high and drink a craft beer?" [laughter]

Amy: Then we have your place!

Ed: So that's kind of counter-intuitive to what we're talking about.

Amy: Exactly, exactly, yeah. Also, the more people move here, the more expensive shit gets, housing, warehousing, all of that. It just makes it more and more and more... unreachable. It's cause we got more people, so they tear down all those old warehouses so they can build city-long, prison lookin' condim-- or not even condos, I don't know what the hell those things are... townhomes? I don't know what they are. But they, all of that entire Rhinoceropolis has been turned into like, a hellscape

Ed: And there's no parking anywhere!

Amy: Yeah, there's hotels opening down there that don't even have parking. I'm not kidding you. You have to Uber to the hotel and Uber around the city.

Germaine: Well, you could Uber from the airport I guess. [laughter] But I feel like if-- can I have this?-- there's tons of people moving to Trinidad, there's tons of small little, cool towns that could, I wish like, a bunch of people would get together, like Mutiny, Black and Read, like all those businesses are getting pushed out to Englewood, Edgewater, I know they might have families here and they can't just move, but it'd be really cool if like 10 different businesses secretly agree to, like, rent a whole mainstreet in some small town and just make it a cool place and you could afford to, you know, live around it, just a tiny little microchasm. That would be awesome! 

Amy: I think that's kind of what he's tried to do up at Black Monarch, cause he's tried to get some other people to move up there. It's just such a like, I mean... it's difficult to get to. It's not a convenient location, for you know, an artist colony. But! It was an artist colony, 50, 60 years ago! Yeah, that's what that, that area was an artist colony. Yeah! It's a pretty cool history, you should check it out.

Ed: Well... I'm just curious about community and what it's meant to you?

Amy: God, everything. Like when I think about everything, like from when I was 12 and started hittin' up warehouse shows, til the time I was 35, you know, and stopped doing 'em, cause we had shows at our house, we had a house on Hollywood that we, that was like an old church, so we could do shows there as well. But yeah, I mean it's everything. Every person I met and care about to this day, and worked with, and commiserated and created with, like, every single one of those people I met in that scene. Ya know? 

It's crazy, and I'll tell you what, I got a ten year old daughter and one of the motivating factors for us behind wanting to open an all ages space is so she has somewhere to go and fuckin' hang out when she's a teenager. Cause there's like nothing for these kids, we want to be mad at kids for hanging out on their god damn phones all the time, well give 'em someplace and somethin' to do. Cause there's like, very little for these kids to do anymore.

Germaine: I remember when we ran Wunderground, it was just all female run, a bunch of weirdos lived there. I don't remember there being as much of a community, it was just kind of our private gang [laughter] 

Amy: We were pretty cliquey

Germaine: Yeah, but I just realized that the other day, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I was such an extrovert!" But really, I was an introvert, and an extrovert, cause I was surrounded by just my own friends and I could just do all kinds of crazy stuff. [laughter] I had my own little gang, ya know? 

Ed: That's so important though

Amy: Yeah, to have a crew, absolutely!

Ed: You know what I mean? That's vital

Amy: And it, I mean, as a mom, I literally spend half my life putting a crew together for my kid and making sure all these girls know how important it is to support each other, you know, blah, blah, blah. So like, I totally get it. You can't develop as a human being, without... a crew. As a teen, as young people. Well, you can, but it's just a bigger life, it's a funner life, a more... engaging life

Ed: I think it breaks down that wall of like, anxiety, you know what I mean? Cause the more you don't know somebody else, the more you... don't know 'em.

Amy: Well, and the more you don't know anyone, the more intimidating it is to step into a room.

Ed: Yeah

Amy: If you got one buddy with you, ya know... that makes everything so much easier. And if you have a scene of people that you are familiar with and friends with and, that's like, it's life changing.

Ed: Yeah, and that's where I think there has to be-- like the same way you need food, shelter, water there's a need, not necessarily for DIY indie rock whatever, but just like community spaces that aren't like, government spaces or...

Amy: And that aren't policed or like, regulated too much. Where we're gonna have like, tonight-- this is what I loved about Monkey Mania and Josh, was like, he would have a hip-hop band with a crust punk band and the Costas play, and like none of those three bands belong playing together and it just makes the whole thing more enjoyable, I'm not watching three bands that sound exactly like each other, one right after the other. You know? I just think like, someplace where things can be opened up. You're not a hip-hop club, you're an all ages club and you encompass everything, and you invite the-- you open the place to everything.

Ed: And Germaine, kind of to your point, you don't have to sell the place out, if 7 people show up, you can still play there.

Amy: And put all your heart into it.

Germaine: Yeah, you don't have to impress anyone to get there in the first place. You don't have to be some successful band that a lot of people like that are cool or whatever.

Amy: As a matter of fact, when those bands used to come around Monkey Mania and be like "Hey, can we play a show?" we'd be like, "You play shows 3 nights a week at like big bars, like, leave this space for the kids who can't get a show anywhere else" 

Germaine: [I'm] trying to think of like, the weirdest show.

Amy: Costas

Germaine: Well, he had a following, but yeah, he was, he'd be like sticking stuff up his butt [laughter] pulling it back out, throwing it in the audience, all this stuff [laughter]. You definitely could not have that at a regular bar. Like that would get shut down somehow. "Unsanitary!"

Amy: They would never, there ain't a bar in Denver that would have Costas. But yeah, no, it was just...

Germaine: We got kicked out of, we played a New Year's Eve show at a strip club for some reason and we set the speakers on fire, people were getting tased, like, they hated us [laughter] 

Amy: We were tasing people girl! People weren't getting tased 

Germaine: We were tasing people [laughter]

Amy: We had tasers, and we were tasing people [laughter] 

Germaine: Yeah, that was fun... but ya know like, 

Amy: But that was like a crazy gay bar. There's gonna be some places where people are allowed to be pretty wild. 

Germaine: But like, to your point, when Monkey Mania would have a show or something, or Wunderground or whatever, it would come from 'the art to the show' it wouldn't come from the show. Like, a bar, it starts at the show, "Who can come up on stage and entertain all these people and sell all these drinks?" it's all about the bar first, like, "Who's gonna fill this role of..." like you have a four piece band with all the instruments, it starts from the bar, it doesn't start from the art.

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. And those independent art spaces, it's only about the art. [laughter] Nobody's making any money, ya know, you don't expect to make any money, and I feel like that's a really good place for art to start. 

Germaine: Like, no bar's gonna be like, "Hey! Let's get this guy Three-Fold!" and he comes in and smashes, with a sledgehammer, he smashes 

Amy: That was Tony, Tony his brother

Germaine: Smashes old fire extinguishers with a sledgehammer, like, no bar is gonna have someone come in and do that, like 

Amy: Well, now, they have clubs where you go smash [stuff]

Germaine: Well, different though

Amy: But yeah, he kind of created that genre, I feel like. [laughter]

Germaine: A lot of art is like, cannot exist because there's no place for it, ya know? [laughter]

Amy: Yeah... or at least it can't be shared, if there's not space for it. 

Ed: Alright you guys, the last three questions I have for you, the first is, what are your top three DIY shows? 

Amy: Alright, I'm gonna start with the craziest one, or one of the craziest ones. So, Monkey Mania had a show that was, Get Hustle, Pink and Brown, which ended up Oh Sees, or, it's Dwyer, and then... god, how could I forget their god damned names? 

Germaine: Glass Candy?

Amy: No, well, Glass Candy was on that show, or no, Get Hustle was. The shitheads from-- what the fuck, how could I not remember these guys' name? Like the biggest noise band in the whole world?

Germaine: The Locust?

Amy: Not The Locust. Although, they played at Monkey Mania too

Germaine: Describe the people 

Amy: Okay, there's a drummer, and there's a guitar player

Germaine: What do they look like though?

Amy: And they shred, and they-- Lightning Bolt!! God Damn! [laughter] Jesus Christ! Okay so, Lightning Bolt, Get Hustle and Pink and Brown came and played a show, and like 5 people fuckin' showed up. 

Germaine: Are you serious?

Amy: You don't remember that show?

Germaine: Why were there only 5 people there?

Amy: Nobody knew who they were yet! It was like right before they came up

Germaine: And I guess it was Denver, so

Amy: And it was Denver, so nobody knew shit back then. But yeah, it was like the weakest turnout and like the three most fuckin' epic bands, ever. Now, the next time they came through, it'd be, I mean, we couldn't even fit everyone in the warehouse. Cause they came back after we moved, cause that was at the Lipan warehouse, which is weird, because it had a small warehouse, and then it had a fuckin' huge warehouse, so he would do the bigger shows in the big warehouse, but this one was in the tiny warehouse, fuckin' nobody there man. It was wild. 

So that's one of the ones that I think is like, just the craziest experience, was like, basically the three best bands from the 90's fuckin, nobody there to see it. But, that was cool because we got to hang out with them all and become friends with all those guys.

Germaine: That's another great part about warehouse living, is like, you actually get to talk to the band. Like, everyone gets to talk to the band.

Amy: Like, I talk to Dwyer, to this day. When Dwyer comes through on tour, we go and hang out with them, to this day, because of Monkey Mania, ya know? Same with Ty Segall and like all these people that we interacted with.

Germaine: And like, we didn't have a green room, I don't think, so they were forced to talk to like, all the fans. [laughter]

Amy: Yeah, they just had to hang out in the living room and chat with [everybody] Even when Sonic Youth played Monkey Mania, they just like huddled in a corner in the living room [laughter] until it was time to go onstage. There was no special treatment, that's for sure.

Germaine: And that was my favorite show, 

Amy: And that would be my, the second craziest, would be the Sonic Youth show

Germaine: And the reason I'm not talking about like, other DIY spaces is cause I never like really even left, cause I didn't have to! [laughter] 

Amy: Yeah, we were partying five nights a week, what're we gonna do? Party seven nights a week? 

Germaine: Yeah, like, Titwrench was at Rhino and obviously that was so great, you know, run by Sarah Slater, it was her idea and that was amazing. But for me, the memorable moments are shows that happened in my living room.

Amy: Of course, and that's another thing, is you have kind of a built in social structure when you run those spaces, not always a positive. Many a night, I'd be home alone and some weirdo who comes to shows all the time would show up and wanna talk to me or 

Germaine: So many stalkers

Amy: Yeah, it was weird, I had a lot of stalkers back then, for sure. Sonic Youth played at Monkey Mania on Larimer, at one point, and that was fucking nuts, cause it was like, Sonic Youth with Wolf Eyes opening and Sonic Youth had played earlier that night at, Bluebird? 

Germaine: Ahh, something like that

Amy: Something like that. And then they came and played like a super late-night show, I mean, I don't think they showed up til like one in the morning? And so all these people had been tooling around the warehouse for hours and like, "Do you think they're really gonna show up?" "I think you guys are fuckin' with us!" [laughter] Cause we would put like Metallica on the fliers as like the headliners and then we'd put all the crappy little local bands that were actually playing. And so everybody thought we were fuckin' with 'em, until they walked through the door.

Germaine: Claudine was like the guard dog at the front door, like, "No! No one else is coming in!" it was like packed to the brim.

Amy: We literally were like piled on top of each other, throughout the entire warehouse. 

Germaine: And it sucks, because like, I think my brother got turned away at first.

Amy: We snuck him in through the back

Germaine: Yeah, we got him in through the back.

Amy: Yeah, special people got snuck in the back. 

Germaine: I would have felt really bad if he was turned away. Like, "C'mon!" 

Amy: I was kind of on duty of like sneaking cool people through the back. 

[laughter]

Amy: So that was a crazy one, and the third, for me, would be Costas. I don't know if you know who Costas is, check that motherfucker out. I mean, he's like if GG Allin actually had talent, and a true vision. Like, he's wild man, and his albums are actually good. Not like GG where it's like, shitty ass punk rock, he's pretty... he's an artist. Ya know? This guy's a fuckin' artist, but he's insane, I mean wild. He's this French weirdo, I don't even know if he's doing anything anymore. 

But yeah, he literally came and like, shit on our floor [laughter] threw shit around and vomited and like sang his songs and did plays with like, his naked lady that had accompanied him, and then after, ya know, he had rolled this carpet out that he put on our warehouse floor, and proceeded to just blow all of our fucking minds. Literally, probably one of my favorite shows I've ever seen. Cause it was just so out there and so much was put into it. And I didn't even care that someone was throwing shit at me [laughter] 

But in the end, he rolled up his carpet, cleaned everything up meticulously, and was like the nicest, funnest dude to hang out with.

Germaine: See, and that's another thing about these spaces, is like not only do you get to meet these people, hang out with them before and afterwards and everything, but it's like a truly individualized art. It's not like, "Oh, you have to be in a band that plays this music that everyone's into right now" It's like, you can go and show yourself and be your weirdest self and they can call it performance art or whatever, and.... it's totally acceptable [laughter]. 

Amy: It's gonna fly, yeah. People are gonna sit through it and watch you do your weird shit.

Germaine: Yeah... yeah. I miss that.

Amy: I miss it! And I truly value the people who continue to do it, and I just... wish them all the luck in the world, cause it is not easy anymore. It wasn't easy then! And it's even more difficult now. 

Germaine: There's a venue, well it's like someone's house, out in San Luis Valley that's doing those shows. They did a Denver Noise Fest out there, and you could camp out in a tent or your car, or whatever, and that was really cool, because I mean like, we're out in the middle of nowhere, San Luis Valley, it's not even that far, it's like 3 hours from Denver, but, you could play music outside, be noisey, whatever. No one even got that crazy, it was pretty chill [laughter] to tell ya the truth. But, I just feel like it's getting spread out pretty far right now. Did that answer that question?

Ed: That was great! I think that answered Most Surreal and Best shows. But do you guys want to say most surreal?

Amy: Say what?

Ed: Top three Most Surreal shows

Amy: Ohh! Costas would definitely be way number one. 

Germaine: And Physics, that band that I fell asleep to, that would be kind of surreal. The walls were just like vibrating around me, like, "Whiirrrrnng" [laughter]

Amy: That Locust show was pretty surreal.

Germaine: Okay, I got a show, and I know it's my own show, and I know you didn't ask us to only talk about ourselves [laughter] but, we were in this band called Hot Fag and it was Toshimi, Josh, Amy and I and we only played a couple shows. One of them was that one at that strip club where Josh tased--

Amy: Noo, we tased everybody, Josh did not tase a single person. ME and YOU tased everyone. 

Germaine: Are you sure?

Amy: Absolutely, Josh would never.

[various discussion]

Germaine: Well, the funny thing about that is, the previous show, people were getting made out with. Like, we didn't tase people, people were getting made out with.

Amy: Ahh, that's right! That's why we tased everyone at the second show. The first show, we just went through and made out with like every audience member. And so when we played our next show....

Germaine: It started in the back of the room, we walked up to the stage, we made out with everyone on the way there [laughter]

Amy: Yeah, and so for the next show, we were like, "Well, everyone's gonna expect us to go and make out with them, so let's tase 'em instead" 

[laughter]

Amy: So that was the theory there.

Germaine: And the whole room was full of fog, the make out one, the whole room was full of fog, we made out with everyone on the way and someone was up on stage

Amy: Josh, Josh was up on stage. You're right, that was pretty surreal! Makin' out with every single person at Monkey Mania was pretty surreal. [laughter] And then I'm trying to think of anything else that was just like so wild, so many good bands played there, it's bonkers. Like everyone, every time Dwyer came through, he was gonna be at Monkey Mania, whatever band he was in at the time. 

Germaine: Yeah, I threw a trashcan at his face

Amy: Yes, Germaine threw a trashcan at his face, and cut his face, and to this day every time he sees me he brings that up.

[laughter]

Amy: So I guess that was pretty surreal. 

Germaine: Hey, at least I didn't mean to. I've seen video of him smashing someone in the face with his guitar on purpose, on stage.

Amy: I could see that. And I do think, there was a Glass Candy show there that was just absolutely spectacular. So good man. 

Germaine: Do you remember Stoner Witch?

Amy: Stoner Witch... who was in that?

Germaine: Like our band, like it was performance art, and we, we didn't really even have a plan, but we took all the furniture in the living room and made a pile of it and sat on it,

Amy: And then everybody smashed it. [laughter] Just ya know, constantly stupid shit. But people need that! 

[agreement]

Amy: Yeah, so I don't know how important it was? It felt important, to me. And honestly, it felt kind of like doin' a service. Like, it's the way you contribute to your... whatever, your scene. 

Germaine: One time Josh played a show to coerce me into paying rent. [laughter] Played like a 24 hour show on the bass, "Ticket price is $375" 

Amy: I think it was like, $100.. [laughter] 

Germaine: It was like so little.

Amy: But it was his way of getting us to pay rent for that room, because we... never did. [laughter] 

Ed: So given the current climate of the world and everything, what would be your, right now, ideal DIY venue?

Germaine: I'm thinking somewhere, like, there's so many cool mountain towns. I would move out there and buy a warehouse right now, I probably should, cause that's where it's gonna happen, if I had like, a group of people to move in there with me, cause you can't just be isolated out there. But, if you had a crew, and had a warehouse in whatever nearby town, you could make it happen, you could just drive back in and work a little.

But like I, I just like that slow town, we all take it for granted, small slow town warehouse feel and I keep driving through all these towns that feel like that and I'm like, "Aw, I miss this". Even behind the new Forney Museum there's this little warehouse area back there, where I'm like, "Oh, this reminds me of old Monkey Mania" ya know? 

So I just feel like, ideal would be like, a warehouse that felt really cozy, just like a desolate area, didn't feel like you were going to some flashy downtown place or whatever, it was just a cozy warehouse, where maybe people lived, you could hang out outside, do whatever you want, talk, slow paced.

Amy: I feel like there's some of that going on in Fort Collins. A decent amount of that going on in Fort Collins. Yeah, just, my buddy Gus lives out there and plays in a band.

Germaine: Is there like a warehouse of something?

Amy: Yeah. For me, mine would be the opposite [laughter]. I would like a big space in the middle of downtown Denver, that's totally lawless, and a place where people can get together and discuss how they're gonna take Trump and Musk out [laughter] ya know? A place where people can get together and just be absolutely lawless and make art and music, and the bigger the better, in my opinion. For me, it doesn't have to look nice, doesn't have to look cozy, it just has to exist, and encompass as many people as humanly possible, with the mindset of... I'm not even saying "punk rock", but just like... the mentality of doing your own thing and not letting anyone tell you shit. That's to me what is needed, is just more... anarchy. 

Ed: Well, thank you both so much for this conversation,

Amy: Thank you.

Ed: But are there any closing thoughts, anything else you guys want to share?

Amy: I mean, just that like...

Germaine: I just think that everyone should just search for personal freedom

Amy: There ya go

Germaine: And I think that comes from, enjoying how you make money, or at least like, if you make money, it doesn't take your whole entire life, like work a 9-5 job, find a way 

Amy: Like work a 9-5 job, work a 100 hours a week, if it's something you love, great, [but] don't work your ass off to be miserable your whole life. That would be my closing statement. Don't fucking kill yourself just so you can live a miserable, you know...

Germaine: Like, the less you need, and the less time you need to work, the more time you have to

Amy: Experience life

Germaine: Experience life, 

Amy: Because it's kind of the only thing that matters. Like, ultimately, making art and creating that and being involved in a community like that, it's kind of all that fuckin' matters. In my opinion. I mean, does your job matter? Maybe for some very lucky people their jobs matter, but for most of us, our jobs are a means to an end. So that's not giving me... any freedom of expression, or, any form of freedom. I think it's really important, and I hope to god we can figure out how to make something happen before my kid, cause my kid's a drummer, so she's gonna be in bands, it's kind of important to me [laughter] that these places continue to exist. 

So I don't know, I guess just... support these places. Support these bands, you like going to see a show for 10 bucks as opposed to 250? Support these fuckin' places. Because it's really hard to tour anymore. 

Ed: Yeah, I don't mean to kick the conversation back up, but just the importance of 'entry level'.

Amy: Yes! 

Ed: If everything is super competitive and you gotta be the best,

Amy: Yes! Like she [Germaine] was saying, like if you gotta be 'slick' and have everything ready for you bar show, you just miss out on so much interesting creativity when there isn't a space for beginners.