Max Mudge of New York DIY

Ed: So firstly, who are you?

Max: My name is Max Mudge. I grew up in Denver, always part of the skate scene, sort of peripherally involved in the punk music scene. 34 years old. Lived in Virginia for a couple of years and said fuck that and... [moved back].

Ed: Nice, so what was your introduction to DIY or alternative spaces and culture?

Max: Okay… so in some sense, that’s always been home, and a part of my life, in regards to street skating. Which is like “let’s make the city a DIY space!” You’re looking at a marble ledge downtown, in terms of architecture or the function of sitting on it, and skateboarders look at it as if it is a physical challenge to be interacted with and simultaneously, inherently, breaking the law. Right? Any time you street skate, it is illegal. And… what I loved about it was the other people that wanted to do it had the same mindset I did. Which, maybe, I started skating when I was in 2nd grade (?) and I didn’t even start to try to conceptualize my motivation, and obsession, with skateboarding in general, and philosophically, those were all people who had a really hard time, in one way or another, and who reacted to the human condition, in particular fuckin’ society and expectations with “no” or “why?” or “fuck no!” right? and like, those weren’t things I really understood or could see in myself until I was at least a teenager. And even at that point it’s sort of silly, misguided rebellion, but then… it’s sort of evolved since then. I’ve never let go of like, the only sane reaction to our circumstances is, “fuck you” “why?”

Ed: So for you, DIY, from the get go was about, reimagining… everything

Max: Everything! And I only can kind of think about it that way, because in June [2024], getting a 0 to 100 mph education in the skate DIY scene, and… that started in March [2024] because of a trip to Oakland, California where I skated all these skate parks and they were all in dangerous neighborhoods and they had all become sanctioned, but they had started with a couple of assholes with some concrete, or an idea, right? They’re like, “I’m gonna build this ramp over there” and make this space, eventually, into a community area for likeminded folk. And particularly out there what I had seen was, holy shit, the graffiti scene, the artists, the skaters, and the musicians, and-let’s be honest- the criminals, drug dealers, the truuue fucking outsiders, particularly socioeconomically, (this was all in Oakland California)… are all the same fucking people. Or at least the lines between them are blurred. 

I saw kids like, painting, and then putting their cans down and getting on a skateboard. Or sharing music. And also, like one of the skateparks, the first skatepark I pulled up to on that trip, I was like “I don’t know if this is safe?” That’s obviously drug trafficking right there, me and my fiancé at the time were like “it looks like we’re the only white folk” That’s okay but we’re also in a rental car, so there’s a moment of, pause, but then, as soon as we were obviously a part of the skateboarding community, the drug trafficking element brought us a plate of barbecue, we had a conversation with them. Which is sort of parallel to my experience being a teenager, like “I’m in a neighborhood I shouldn’t be in as a little lower middle class white kid, but I’m safe cause I got my board” And the kids who don’t have the money to eat breakfast, their older cousin’s the one selling crack or coke in the park. So the danger is negated by the fact that we share this common bond and overlap.

Ed: And what would you say that bond is?

Max: Desperation. For that side of it, maybe being the victim of true economic violence. For my side of it, simply being like, “this doesn’t make senes” none of this makes sense!

Ed: Is any of it like, this desire for an alternative?

Max: Yeah, yeah, it’s a need for a true actual capital P Purpose. And I think maybe on the criminal side of it it’s about capital S Survival. But there’s mutual respect I think across those lines, in that, we have the same perspective on the powers that be. Or at least our situation. 

Ed: Well, and there’s an energy to it too, like “I wanna do something” Is that part of it too?

Max: Yea-

Ed: Cause I think about skateboarding and I think about, it’s not just sitting around doing nothing. It’s saying, “I’ve got all this energy, and I wanna go… bounce off the walls”

Max: 100%. And I want to bounce off the walls with the other kids… who have to. (laughter) To make sense of whatever's going on at home or at school or whatever is like... that was always like a reason to get through the bullshit. [It] was, "I know that me and Zach and Froggy and Manny and whoever else will be able to have this, in retrospect, necessary and sacred time to be... free" And that sounds sort of corny, but that's a 33 year old thinking about a 13 year old. Like, "oh that's why that skateboard was by the front door" and was like, a lot of times I think, I picked the skateboard up and left the house, instead of something worse happening. 

I think that's why there's a vague understanding of like... DIY space? But it became focused when we started building, in that abandoned... first! when we started sweeping glass there, so we could skate and then, getting a hammer drill, borrowing a hammer drill, cause at that point, I had no fuckin' power tools, and the flat bar, and the quarter pipe and the shit that I owned, drilling through it, securing it, into a preexisting space that wasn't being used and like started to make it into a skatepark. 

Ed: Gotcha

Max: And it was already a canvas for the graffiti scene. They got there quick. 

Ed: Gotcha. So kind of to backtrack, you'd been skating since you were very young, had always kind of street skated and had an alternative take on common spaces, and then, about the trip to Oakland, how did you end up there and what was significant about it? And when did you [go there]

Max: So, I will share like the personal part of it because I think maybe it's important. So last year,  it would have been March of last year [2024], the end of March of last year, and, my significant other at the time and I flew to the bay area for a friend of mine's wedding. And, both of us in love with skateboarding, we met at a skatepark, two hours before the covid lockdown, because we both had the same instinct, which was like, "I don't know what the fuck's happening, but I'm gonna go to the skatepark. Some real shit's going down, if I can't skate after 6pm or whatever, if the country's shutting down, or the world's shutting down, my instinct is like... grab my skateboard, and fuckin' do that" 

But anyway, yeah, we went out there for, I think it was like Wednesday to Sunday, and we had intentionally planned the trip around "Okay so then we can also kind of hit all these skateparks in the area, with the spare time we have" And I was just blown away that why isn't this a thing in Denver? Not knowing that there is a DIY skate culture here, but it isn't like it is in Oakland where it's a common space for visual artists, musicians, skateboarders and people with grey moral compass in terms of like, feeding themselves and their families. And I could completely be wrong about that, I think that's a relatively novel thing, in at least the [Denver] metro area, probably simply because for a long time, since the early 2000's, the government's been like "Yeah, fuck it dude, we'll spend a bunch of money on a skatepark, so these assholes have somewhere to go" Not true everywhere else in the country. 

In Colorado we have over 200 skateparks, right? And I think that's pretty effective at deterring the component of the culture that I fell in love with. Like, I'm not a park skater, and I didn't know that, because I was a street skater and then you get old and you're like "I can't drive around Denver for 12 hours with my friends" (laughter) like fuckin' four days a week! And so once we started building, the skate diy scene here started showing up and they knew what the whole, the philosophy was, they knew all of these like common bits of wisdom that without them, in particular Vinny and that whole crew, Old Head Nick, and then Nick Sizer all had these skill sets and experience where I was like, "Oh! Okay" these are things that make the space thrive, and protect the space, and I had no idea. 

Ed: And what were those things? 

Max: So first of all, experience in construction, particularly with concrete, but that's a thing I had no experience with. So watching them work, I was like, "Okay, fuck yeah. I can figure out a little bit at a time, get my hands on the tools I need, find ways to not have to pay for everything out of pocket anymore" 

But I think there's a beautiful moment, it was the first time we'd ever poured concrete in the space, and Vinny was the one who knew what the fuck he was doing, knew this, knew that, and in the middle of that moment, three cops drive into the building. Cause it's an enormous building and, ya know, for a long time I would drive in there so I could unload tools, my skateboard, whatever else I needed or use my headlights so we could skate past dark. 

But three cops pull in, I'm a street skater that's my only experience, so my instinct- and Vinny could see it, cause we were like next to each other- was like, grab my skateboard and flee! Because there's the authority, I'm not allowed to be here, my past time has become trespassing and destruction of property. Also, despite how I appear, I'm a therapist with a career I need to protect. So I'm like, "I'm out we're fucked" 

And he shakes his head and goes "No, no, no. When the cops come, you always wave them down. Come to us." And I- dude- scared, a bit scared, because I, you know, to some extent, my career's on the line. I can't catch a serious charge and expect to continue like- not to mention that I have a small social services based, youth skateboarding company, you don't make a huge amount of money, but successful enough that I wanted to protect that too. I can't go around getting... getting charges. 

But I was like, "Okay man!" he knows what the fuck's up. We wave them over, and like on our walk over to the cruisers, he's like, "You always are calm, respectful, explain why you are... like, why we're doing what we're doin'" he gave me the spark notes of the mission for this conversation. And, he starts the exchange with "Hey! My name's Vinny" and like shaking the cops hand through the open window. And then, I was like "Oh! I think I can bullshit this" (laughter) and so I talked to those cops for 20, 30 minutes and they were like... first of all I took responsibility then like five minutes into the conversation they were like, "Are you guys like cleaning all this out?" and I was like "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah!" and they were like, "You know, it's interesting, we don't get gunshots or arson, or whatever here anymore..." and I'm like "We're not a scary group, but I think like those folks look into a space and they're like 'Ten sweaty punk skaters? Maybe we'll deal drugs elsewhere?'" right? 

Which, is sort of how Oakland had operated. The city was like "Fuck it, it's a little safer, the neighbors love these kids, or whatever, we'll just fuckin' look the other way" And then, after the end of the conversation, there had been like a genuine human connection between me and the law enforcement for the first time ever. A common cause. Like "Guess what? The cops don't want to go into a giant abandoned building at 3 in the morning cause there's a bunch of gunshots." No one wants- like, he's got a kid, like fuck that if you can avoid it. 

And so the end of the exchange was them, the shift commander handing me his business card, like "I don't know if you guys will continue to be allowed to be here, but buh buh buh buh buh. But if you have a conversation with any other cop, go ahead and give them my information and tell them about this conversation" and I was like "Okay, cool" 

And that doesn't happen without Vinny. And to backtrack even more, like, if the glass doesn't get swept... like, I'm a firm believer that without Joe, Everett, Calvin, and Bucky, I would have significant bad consequences in my life. I would be dead, or in jail, or something. Cause that's the point I was in June [2024]. That's like too many emotions to safely exist in the world. Now those people, being skaters, punks, and one of them being my best friend for a decade, could feel that, understand that, meet me where I was, make sure that like, I could exist in the chaos that I was living through and that they understand and love that chaos, and could keep me safe. Right? 

So there was no plan, it was, me losing my mind and them having enough love and understanding in their hearts to be like "Oh! We got you"

Ed: Gotcha. So kind of to backtrack again, how did you find the space and how did things get started?

Max: Soo, my ex-fiance, she owns a house two blocks away from the space. And so when I moved in with her, right when I moved in with her, it was still a functional building. But that was the beginning of covid, things changed. Maybe a year, 18 months into covid, it stopped functioning and shortly thereafter, was purchased and demoed in the most half assed way ever (laughter). Like, they, I think, did legally the bare minimum to the building that they had to do, and there's a whole backstory, I've done endless hours of research on the space, the companies that have owned it, the failed development plans. Cause everybody sees dollar signs. So I've spoken to realtors, bunch of other people about what it used to be, what it was, the problems that people are having trying to utilize the space...

But anyway, I lived right there, so I watched the building go from like, "It's an AT&T center. They have an office, I see all these office workers, they have work trucks for like, if the lines go down so you know like a work truck so the blue collar component can go like hop on a ladder and do their maintenance for whatever fuckin' telephone pole or internet service is down." And then, the gates are locked. And then the windows are smashed. And then there's holes cut in the fence. 

And then whatever, a year or so ago, before the skate trip, myself, my friend Daniel and Mary went to go skate at Luminati, which is a tattoo shop, art space, and they have a private indoor skate park there, and the weather was shitty right? So the only option was like an indoor skate sesh and we skated for a couple of minutes and a tattoo artist was like "Hey man, it's too loud, I'm trying to focus" and so we were like "Alright man! Peace up" and Daniel was like, "I heard there's kind of a cool abandoned building and part of it's skateable. It's really dirty and messy or whatever" and Mary's a photographer so she had her camera and we went in there and there's already allll this fuckin' dope, beautiful graffiti everywhere. 

And the building, there's one or two skateable features preexisting and the rest of the place is waiting to be fuckin' transformed. And so we had this kind of few hours in the afternoon we were there and Mary's taking photographs through a pipe hole from the outside, into the building, of me and Daniel skating off this feature. And at that point in my life I was trying to save that relationship, I was in the middle of a huge work project and I was struggling with substance abuse issues, so as authentic as like looking around and being like "Ahh, this is magic already, but it's like waiting to be a different kind of magic" those thoughts came through and I was like "There's something real here" but also there wasn't like, the space in my life to follow up on it. 

Ed: And what year was that? 

Max: Beginning of- January or February of 2024, so before that skate trip. 

Ed: Okay.

Max: So we've been building there since January [2024]. So that's when the seed was planted, but there wasn't room in my life. And then, the engagement with her fell apart, pretty painfully, on June 7th [2024] the day after Go Skate Day which is a skateboarder holiday. And so, June 8th was the first day I was there and I was there every day from then until like, negotiations fell apart with the owner to at least let my skateboarding company at least purchase a liability policy so that he could be like, "Cool! I'm gonna look the other way" That's a whole other fuckin' saga (laughter) 

Ed: So, what do you think, with something like skateboarding where there's like, there's all of these state sanctioned skateparks, there's street skating, which is reappropriation of public space.

Max: Also reimagining.

Ed: Reimagining! Reimagining what you can do with, in public space..

Max 100%

Ed: So as far as a DIY space goes... when you talk about Oakland and the way, out of necessity, the way their DIY spaces have developed, and your experience now in your own space--

Max: I'd correct that, OUR own space, because I accidentally thrust into this position where like, there was a necessary force, where it was like, I need something to do, and then there was a reaction by the people who loved me and cared about me enough to be like, "We'll do it with Max" not knowing what we're doing, I don't think any of them were huge into the DIY scene previously. I've skated a few DIY's, they had too, Joe's obsession at that point was FPV drones, which I can show, fuck' spectacular, but--that little cluster of like despair and love and chaos, got the ball rolling. Right? And then I was put in a position because of the commercials from Nike or whatever where I was like, "This place is going to fucking fall apart, unless somebody can take a rudder to whatever energy is happening" 

So, late August, I started an instagram in an attempt to be able to share information to the community to keep the space alive. And the funny thing being like once there was momentum, trying to-- having conversations with Everett or other people that were like day one OG's of the space, they keep coming to me with their ideas, like, problems, concerns. And so for like a week I'd be like, "Oh no! Everett started this place too" and then he came to me like, "Dude, I just wanna skate. I don't have time or energy to have conversations with all these people, with problems, commentary" or the people that want to build, make, create are like, where their eyes light up and whatever, some of em being people with construction companies, some of them being like electricians, like, whatever the skill set, them seeing something in the space and them being like, "How? I wanna make this happen".

Ed: Well, that kind of answers what I was talking about, or what I was thinking of asking which was, what does just having a space that is not only a blank canvas, but also has like teamwork involved? Like how does that effect, how, is there something unique about that?

Max: For me in my life, completely and entirely. Like never. I've fallen in love to the point of like, I've dropped thousands of dollars in there. And like a conservative (?) estimate of 50 hours a week from June 7th [2024] until now. Working for free. But it doesn't feel like work. 

Ed: And I think we mentioned before we started recording about like, what's unique about at least the DIY spaces that I care about talking to people about is, there's no clear profit involved. It's not like starting a business where it's like, "We're going to charge people this much, we're going to hit this quarterly or whatever"

Max: It became fundraising to buy bags of concrete. 

Ed: Yeah

Max: That's what it's become, how little can we and a group of ten other people pay out of pocket for the next concrete project. 

Ed: But it seems like it becomes this thing where it ignites a passion, and then the collaboration stokes that flame, and then so much becomes possible!

Max: 100% and a thought just came to be that I think sort of piggy backs on that is like, I had no idea how connected I was to the Colorado skate scene until the owner is hitting me up, telling me he's going to press charges but I've known this is coming for six weeks and I have a plan and then all of a sudden I have a professional dude that does insurance for a living, a very successful real estate agent, I have a lawyer, I have myself and we're all working for free because we love this place to save it. 

People don't think skateboarding and successful careers, right? And I love that about us. But I also love that we all love skateboarding enough that whatever applicable experience is yours for free if it's about skateboarding. 

Ed: Yeah

Max: That was the moment where I was it was like, dude I feel like I'm managing a business where it's like really all I'm doing is just like, "Ben's a real estate agent, (he does residential) but he's like 'Yo, the homie does specifically industrial Denver Metro real estate, here's his phone number" and then somebody else in the construction chat's like "My oldest brother's been in the insurance business for 15 years, here's his phone number, he knows you're reaching out" and all those people answered the fuckin' phone. And are in a meeting two hours later.

Ed: Wow!

Max: In the middle of a fuckin' workday! 

Ed: I mean, I think that has to speak to some kind of hunger in general for something other than like... I mean, what would you even call it?

Max: Magic dude, I don't fucking know. Something contrary to the entire structure of our... social-- economic, everything. 

Ed: Yeah

Max: It's anarchism.

Ed: And it's so natural. You know what I mean?

Max: 100%

Ed: Like from talking to all of these people that I've talked to, it's not like this calculated like five year plan, it's just like, "Oh, here's an opportunity, I'm gonna take it, woah, look at this" And it's not like, there's similarities between what people do but it always comes from this happenstance where it's like "I was at this place in my life, this was available, my friends got involved" and all of a sudden it becomes something so important to so many people.

Max: Yeah. And there's been repercussions, there's been things I didn't see coming. Which is like, fuck it, I don't want to be a political figure but early on, I walk in and someone is smashing the quarterpipe, the wooden quarterpipe I had just bolted into a spot in the space because of some old beef with someone else. And I'm like, "Fuck man! That's my ramp!" so I spent two hours talking to him, smoothing it over like "Oh, they destroyed this thing you built. Somebody fucked somebody's girlfriend back in the day in the music scene" like, I don't give a shit about the beef, but I was able to step in, have a conversation, make it right, and I think that's of value to the community. 

Where it's like "Hey man, I got free lumber, I got this stack of lumber, I'll come with my tools I-- we-- you and I-- the injured party and me as like trying to make sure the space doesn't collapse can build something better than you had originally had. 

Ed: Yeah, yeah. I think like 

Max: And that was the first of many, like I've had death threats. I've had people explain why, our vision for the space is the wrong vision. And I think a decade as a therapist... people are pretty-- even the owner, the owner of the building, is pretty off guard when it's like "Dude, thanks for talking to me about this" and starting it instantly, if they're angry and loud and lashing out, [saying] "Thanks for telling me. How can we"... fuckin' that phrase of like, "Oh you want to destroy as opposed to build? How can we... help? How can we solve this problem? How can we make the space more welcoming? How can we as the community" The fuckin collective pronoun. 

And so I woke up to messages from a... like "It was started yesterday (instagram account) but it didn't end, your days are numbered" like with death threats I woke up to an infuriated hedge fund manager. And all those interactions I was like, "How can we make this right?" and by the end of the day, the hedge fund manager, owner of the building was like "Let me reach out to my team" and he did research on my company, my background, he contacted the neighbors (who we had a wonderful relationship with) he talked to the cops, particularly the one who I was like, "Talk to so and so, here's his badge number, his phone number, his email address, he's a friend." 

Where it's like "Yeah, come for the fuckin' space mother fucker, we're ready!" (Laughter) You know what I mean? Like threaten my life, come to the space, we ready! Like, my friends are crazier than you are. You know what I mean? (laughter) And I mean that in a very sincere way, but it was also deeply wounding. Not the owner, that was like planned, it was like "Dude, if we're gonna make it through, we have to have an idea of how I'm going to be contacted, how to respond, the argument, the evidence to put forth of who our allies are."

But, waking up to an instagram message of, "I think you're gatekeeping, this is not my vision for the space" and a 90 minute text exchange where he finally (and I can't remember who this was) but, said something that deeply offended me and I was like, "Cool man, I'm tired, it's your job" and I added him to the group chat and I was like, "Hey, so and so is going to take over, I'm taking a vacation, and by Friday, here's our budget, we have $43, we need two A-frame ladders, a five gallon of white, a five gallon of black, we need 25 bags of concrete. The cost of all these things, 800 bucks, do it with 48 bucks and human capitol."

And so it was just like 40 people seeing that message, and then the guy I added, seeing, and then exiting himself from the group chat and never talking to him again.

Where it's like, "Dude, I wanted to build and take your, your--- ideas, and do something like constructive but after 90 minutes if you say something that intentionally wounding, I'll just... let the community, let you take what you want from me, which is, whatever my role is, and I'm also going to show you, what my actual role is. And if you want the job, fuck it, I could use a vacation. Peace." [Laughter]

Ed: Yeah, well I think so much of what you're talking about is just how to communicate in a way that there's like a point of entry. Not necessarily in terms of gatekeeping, but like there's a central point that people can direct stuff to. 

Max: Right.

Ed: Concerns, ideas, whatever, and also leaving it, maintaining that collective... the importance of the collective where it's like, "I'm not an authority, and I'm not trying to be authoritarian--"

Max: [laughter] No.

Ed: "Like if I can facilitate, I wanna help facilitate"

Max: "What do you need to make the thing you wanna do happen that you don't have?"

Ed: And like, "What does everybody think of this?"

Max: 100%

Ed: And like, that seems really healthy to me.

Max: And that was the first time I was like, personally wounded. So then, we're building a couple days later, and one of Vinny's friends, I was like, "Yo, I got this message, tried to be cool about it, and then, whatever, whatever. Do you think I'm gatekeeping?" and she laughed. She was like, "You're not fucking gatekeeping!" and there was this reassuring moment of like... "Oh yeah, collective.  I can step back again. Because it's not my space anyway." I just misidentified that feed back and put it on myself. The reality is like, "Hey community, am I being a shithead about this?" and if they say yes, then I am, and if they say no, then I'm not! You know what I mean? And if they say yes, then that's an opportunity to do this in like a healthier, better, more group minded way.

And I don't know, the other thing is, I was there every day until we got shut down, and I said the same thing. If someone showed up and I hadn't seen 'em, I was like, "Yo! What's up? Glad you are here! Never park on the residential side, cause there's one Trump asshole who'll call the cops. He doesn't care what we're doing, he just doesn't want skaters parking on his street. Park in the cul-de-sac, don't block Rigo's driveway, cause he lets us build with his plywood, lets us borrow his forklift, when we're pouring concrete, he and I are the reason the tweakers don't cut his fence and steal his shit anymore. He calls me if there's someone in here at like 2 in the morning doing some shady shit. Because the mindset I was in was like, soo chaotic where I was like, "Cool, let me throw my dog in the car, and drive into an abandoned warehouse with a bunch of fuckin' meth heads and scare them away" 

I didn't really know that was a positive thing [laughter] I just lucked out. And I'm in a healthier place, I don't do that anymore. So that was the beginning and then it was like, "Hey man! The space has absolutely no fuckin' rules." As one of the first people to start doing anything here, I request that you 1.) Enjoy it, 2.) Respect it, and 3.) Contribute. Keep in mind, some of my favorite people, disregarded those guidelines. And that's the beauty of the space! Like, fuckin' cool, do it in an interesting way! 

And also, the community polices itself. You know what I mean? Because it's small enough [laughter].

Ed: Yeah, absolutely. 

Max: But that's me, being on a soapbox about it.

Ed: Absolutely. Well... I'll just ask like my 3 closing questions that I ask everybody. So one is, and interpret this into skateboarding, so this is a music question that can be interpreted into skateboarding,

Max: Totally

Ed: What are you're top three shows?

Max: Okay... there's overlap in the community anyway, so... all time favorite concert...

I was 25 years old, it was at Larimer Lounge, there were 15-20 of us. I got a phone call from a friend I've known since 4th grade, and he said, "There's a band ya gotta see, I already bought your ticket, if you can't get there on your own, I'll pick you up in 15 minutes." [so I said] "Alright man!"

So I got to Larimer Lounge, and it was Pup, which is that skateboard [gesturing] hanging on the wall, and this tattoo on my leg, "Pathetic use of potential" Canadian pop-punk band, they had just released their first ever album, fuckin' 15 or 20 of us, I got my nose broken. You know the venue, there's that concrete post somewhere, and it was just a hectic, love filled, sweaty idiot, punk pit, and it was the best music I had ever heard. It was a moment in which like, I was like, "Oh, there's this skateboarding magic, but then in this part of the music scene that I've always been next to" but it was my first experience of that.

And then, in terms of skateboarding... there's too many moments man. 

There was, and I'll change the question into [what are your top three] "Skate Sesh" [s]

Ed: Your top three skate sessions.

Max: Cause one is, ya know, the concert there is as legitimate as the skateboarding sessions, but, I grew up skating with a little crew of us. Froggy was our filmer, now he runs the Colorado Skate Scene instagram page, which has like 10,000 followers. I had just moved back to Denver maybe a year or so previous, so I was like 25/26 and it was this beautiful moment of reunion, where he was filming me again while I skated a hand rail in Park Hill and he hadn't filmed me skate since I was 17. It was almost a decade later like almost homecoming thing. And I have the footage somewhere. And it was true to our community too cause there was another friend that was from those days, and then there was like a new friend, also skating the same part. And it was like, sometimes, it just fuckin' happens. And it's only magic if you don't plan it, don't expect it! It's just like, he hit me up at 3:50 and I was like, "Yeah I'm in the neighborhood." and then I hit up a friend, he hit up a friend, then we're there til the sun goes down trying to do what we love. 

And then, this is props to my ex-fiance Mary, sort of a collage of different experiences at skateparks, watching her stop what she was doing, no matter what was going on, to go help a young female skater feel welcome and progress. Because it was a community that was barred to her, she was excluded, she was xyz. And to watch her take the actual important philosophical part of skateboarding and apply it to her own... next generation, right? And that's how Skate Goblins started, that's how we ended up teaching skate lessons and getting contracts with cities and all these different things was because she, every time she saw some 11 year old girl who looked out of place or concerned or whatever, or just needed a tip on how to drop in, she was over there for fuckin' 90 minutes. 

Ed: Nice

Max: You know what I mean? 

Ed: So I would say, what are you top three most surreal skate sessions?

Max: Ha! They're all at the DIY. [laughter] So my buddy has like a giant jeep that has like a fridge, running water, floodlights, so some of it's on drone footage, I'll show you. It was the night after Everett just showed up randomly with the basketball hoop because some of our friends don't skate and we'd just sit around because it was a cool space. So he brought a basketball hoop and a basketball. So there's this footage of Joe flying a drone under one of the rails we built, catching my friend John playing basketball then turning around and following me skateboarding when I didn't know he was gonna do that. 

Ed: Yeah

Max: Shit like that. There's a million, that was... there's endless of those. So many I can't remember, but like I'll send you whatever footage was captured. It's all, for me, the magic there's after dark. It's all by headlight or floodlight. This tattoo I got by headlight, in the space at 4 in the morning.

Ed: Nice [laughter]

Max: And that's, you know, Mary's art. That's our logo for our company. But yeah dude, like, fuckin' endless...

Ed: And what would you say is your ideal DIY venue?

Max: One that still has the fuckin' magic, I don't know. Like, you feel it when you walk into a space

Ed: You either have it or ---

Max: And it's, I think all of em had it at some point, or no one would still be walking in, but you can walk in and it's like "Something's going on and I'm interested"--

Ed: How much of that do feel like comes down to like, like I feel like a lot of that is on me as an individual?

Max: Yes.

Ed: If I walk into a space and I'm self conscious and I'm being judgmental and I feel like I have something to hide

Max: Or the reverse

Ed: I can walk into Rhinoceropolis in 2008 or whatever and be miserable but like, if I walk into a space and I'm like comfortable in my own skin, accepting of other people uh... open to whatever's gonna happen, then like instantly whatever space I walk into is gonna be different. Is that kind of what you're talking about?

Max:100%. But it goes both directions. You know what I mean? You can walk in in a great headspace and have a very accurate read of [the situation]. The one thing I always wanted to make sure of is like, "I'm glad you're here." And I had the opportunity, because I was trying desperately not to die, to be there, every fucking day. And walk up to every fuckin' person I could and be like, "Glad you're here, these are some vague guidelines so the cops don't get called. Skate if you skate, paint if you paint, build if you build, and like, let me know if you need spray paint I have a few cans, they're yours if you want it. Let me know if you need wheels or a deck, I have that. And not me personally, someone gave me the paint, it's sitting in my car, so that you can have it, and someone gave me 20 old skate decks and they're sitting in my car so that you as a 14 year old with no money can have it"

But dude, the space inherently filters out a lot of people [laughter] and that's something that I sort of appreciate about it.

Ed: Well thank you so much for talkin, do you have any closing words, anything you want to share?

Max: Come through and skate, or paint, or build some shit. Love you guys, and you Eddie. 

Ed: Love you too brutha.